Thanks for the quick reply,

> > I'm currently trying to build events through doing block transfers.
> 
> I am confused by your question. I assume you read a CAEN V792 ADC, but I do not know what VME master you 
> use. The restrictions on data alignment come from the VME master.
> I am mostly familiar with restrictions of UniverseII and tsi148 PCI-VME bridges.
> I think there is no restriction for USB-VME bridges and similar.
> 
> Anyhow. Which block transfer do you use? 32-bit block transfer (BLT32)? 64-bit block transfer (MBLT64)? 
> (no 128-bit 2eVME/2eSST transfers from the V792). Maybe the "simulated block transfer" (DMA engine uses 
> single-word reads instead of block transfer)?

I read a single CAEN V792n QDC, 18 words, and a single CAEN V1190 TDC, 2 channels so 8 words. When I poll, I 
read on every poll_event() and read whatever data is in whatever module (TDC_dataready || QDC_dataready). The 
VME master that I'm using to talk to the modules is a CAEN V1718. I am trying to read data by BLT32. Sorry for 
the confusing question (Can you tell I'm an intern?).

> > The worry was that organizing and packaging bank data into an array would produce too much dead time 
> causing too many missed events.
> 
> Valid concerns.
> 
> > I'm running into all sorts of issues such as unaligned transfers where the QDC events are unaligned, or 
> improperly aligned banks.
> 
> You should not see any problems with unaligned transfers if you give the DMA engine
> correct memory addresses as required by the hardware:
> 
> - always aligned to 32-bit (4 bytes, last two address bits set to 0)
> - aligned to 64-bits for MBLT64 64-bit transfers, this would be the normal case for the V792 (8 bytes, 
> last 3 address bits set to 0)
> - aligned to 128-bits for 2eVME/2eSST transfers (16 bytes, last 4 bits of address are zero).
> 
> You also need to specify correct amount of data to read: number of bytes should be multiple of 4 for 32-
> bit transfers, multiple to 8 for 64-bit transfers and multiple of 16 for 128-bit transfers (2eVME/2eSST).

I am transferring 32-bit words. Transferring 32-bit words should always read multiples of 4 bytes so that's 
good.

> Very often this requires reading "extra" data words. Most VME modules can generate extra pad words to 
> align event length to DMA restrictions. Sometimes you need to
> enable this in a control register (V792, V1190).
> 
> > Giving me a headache.
> 
> Me too. MIDAS recently introduced the QWORD 64-bit data type, banks of this type
> should have correct alignment for 64-bit VME block transfers. But for 2eVME/2eSST
> transfers, I still have to ensure alignment "by hand" (SIS3820, VF48, etc).
> 
> With QWORD banks, you need to use bk_init32a() instead of bk_init32().
> 
> > My question is, if I were to revert back to simple 32 bit read cycles
> 
> Yes, I always test with single-word reads first, with the 32-bit block transfer second and try the 64-bit 
> block transfer last.
> 
> Sometimes there are unrelated problems (with the VME modules, VME bus, etc, or
> with bugs in the frontend, etc) and this approach helps to identify the source
> of trouble.
> 
> > and using 
> > the fevme.cxx template's method of organizing data before sending them to the 
> > buffer, what kind of deadtime should I expect? Am I wrong to assume that this 
> > would result in deadtime at all? I'm using a CAEN V792n 16 channel QDC and the hit 
> > frequency that I'm using to test is 20kHz.
> 
> Yes, with asynchronous read using 64-bit block transfer, 20 kHz should be achievable.
> 
> The old fevme frontend is based on the mfe.c framework and implementing
> async readout requires special contortions. The structure of the new TMFE C++ frontend
> class is supposed to make it easier, but I do not have an example TMFE based fevme yet.
> 
> P.S. Without using block transfer, your max rate is limited to:
> 
> 16 channels, 1 word per channel, plus 1 header and 1 footer = 18 words (by luck, 64-bit aligned for 
> correct BLT64 block read).
> 
> using VME single-word read at 1 us per transfer, 18 us per event = 55 kHz repetition rate.
> 
> (you do not say if you have any other VME modules you have to read)
> 

Okay so transferring 18 + 6 words should give me close to 40kHz repetition rate. That's good news. I will just 
stick to 1 word transfers.

The way that transfers are done in the fevme.cxx requires iterating through 16 word arrays a number of time (3 
times I believe if you include the iterations taking place in v792_EventRead()). Does that not pose a 
significant deadtime concern? 

> K.O.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out!

Cheers.

Isaac

> > > I'm currently trying to build events through doing block transfers.
> > 
> > I am confused by your question. I assume you read a CAEN V792 ADC, but I do not know what VME master you 
> > use. The restrictions on data alignment come from the VME master.
> > I am mostly familiar with restrictions of UniverseII and tsi148 PCI-VME bridges.
> > I think there is no restriction for USB-VME bridges and similar.
> > 
> > Anyhow. Which block transfer do you use? 32-bit block transfer (BLT32)? 64-bit block transfer (MBLT64)? 
> > (no 128-bit 2eVME/2eSST transfers from the V792). Maybe the "simulated block transfer" (DMA engine uses 
> > single-word reads instead of block transfer)?
> 
> I read a single CAEN V792n QDC, 18 words, and a single CAEN V1190 TDC, 2 channels so 8 words. When I poll, I 
> read on every poll_event() and read whatever data is in whatever module (TDC_dataready || QDC_dataready). The 
> VME master that I'm using to talk to the modules is a CAEN V1718. I am trying to read data by BLT32. Sorry for 
> the confusing question (Can you tell I'm an intern?).
> 

Ok, I see. Using the normal mfe.c structure, you will not be able to read the VME modules
at maximum speed. This is because you must have two concurrent activities happening at the same time:

(1) tell the VME bridge to read data,
(2) package this data into midas banks and events and write it to the MIDAS event buffer.

If you do these tasks sequentially, obviously the VME bus will be idle during step (2),
and unless (2) takes 0 seconds (it does not) you will have a slow down.

So for maximum data rate, I prefer to have 3 threads:

thread 1: run the VME transfers, store data in circular buffer (today it would be std::deque<std::vector<char>>)
thread 2: encode the data into midas banks and midas events, store completed events in a circular buffer 
(std::deque<EVENT_HEADER*>).
thread 3: write data to midas event buffer (call bm_send_event(), etc)

This is very hard to do using the mfe.c frontend. (the main reason I wrote the TMFE C++ frontend class).

>
> Okay so transferring 18 + 6 words should give me close to 40kHz repetition rate. That's good news. I will just 
> stick to 1 word transfers.
>

I do not know the timing of CAEN V1718 single-word transfers. It may be significantly longer than 1 us:

V7865: DWORD read - CPU - PCI bus - tsi148 - VME
V1718: encode request as USB packet - CPU - PCI bus - USB hub - USB bus - USB asic - FPGA - VME (on the way back, 
"extract data from USB packet")

> 
> The way that transfers are done in the fevme.cxx requires iterating through 16 word arrays a number of time (3 
> times I believe if you include the iterations taking place in v792_EventRead()). Does that not pose a 
> significant deadtime concern? 
> 

Hmm... I am not sure what fevme you refer to. I guess I can find version of fevme.cxx where data is read at
maximum VME speed if you want it.

K.O.

> > > > I'm currently trying to build events through doing block transfers.
> > > 
> > > I am confused by your question. I assume you read a CAEN V792 ADC, but I do not know what VME master you 
> > > use. The restrictions on data alignment come from the VME master.
> > > I am mostly familiar with restrictions of UniverseII and tsi148 PCI-VME bridges.
> > > I think there is no restriction for USB-VME bridges and similar.
> > > 
> > > Anyhow. Which block transfer do you use? 32-bit block transfer (BLT32)? 64-bit block transfer (MBLT64)? 
> > > (no 128-bit 2eVME/2eSST transfers from the V792). Maybe the "simulated block transfer" (DMA engine uses 
> > > single-word reads instead of block transfer)?
> > 
> > I read a single CAEN V792n QDC, 18 words, and a single CAEN V1190 TDC, 2 channels so 8 words. When I poll, I 
> > read on every poll_event() and read whatever data is in whatever module (TDC_dataready || QDC_dataready). The 
> > VME master that I'm using to talk to the modules is a CAEN V1718. I am trying to read data by BLT32. Sorry for 
> > the confusing question (Can you tell I'm an intern?).
> > 
> 
> Ok, I see. Using the normal mfe.c structure, you will not be able to read the VME modules
> at maximum speed. This is because you must have two concurrent activities happening at the same time:
> 

I am using the mfe.cxx backend thread, I'm guessing that this is the file you are referring to.

> (1) tell the VME bridge to read data,
> (2) package this data into midas banks and events and write it to the MIDAS event buffer.
> 
> If you do these tasks sequentially, obviously the VME bus will be idle during step (2),
> and unless (2) takes 0 seconds (it does not) you will have a slow down.
> 

I see.


> So for maximum data rate, I prefer to have 3 threads:
> 
> thread 1: run the VME transfers, store data in circular buffer (today it would be std::deque<std::vector<char>>)
> thread 2: encode the data into midas banks and midas events, store completed events in a circular buffer 
> (std::deque<EVENT_HEADER*>).
> thread 3: write data to midas event buffer (call bm_send_event(), etc)
> 
> This is very hard to do using the mfe.c frontend. (the main reason I wrote the TMFE C++ frontend class).

Yes it seems like a bit of work

> >
> > Okay so transferring 18 + 6 words should give me close to 40kHz repetition rate. That's good news. I will just 
> > stick to 1 word transfers.
> >
> 
> I do not know the timing of CAEN V1718 single-word transfers. It may be significantly longer than 1 us:
> 
> V7865: DWORD read - CPU - PCI bus - tsi148 - VME
> V1718: encode request as USB packet - CPU - PCI bus - USB hub - USB bus - USB asic - FPGA - VME (on the way back, 
> "extract data from USB packet")

I found the following information in the CAEN V1718 manual:

"Transfer Rate = ~30MByte/s. Transfer rate supported in MBLT read cycles (block size = 32 kb), using a PC host with 
Windows XP or Linux and High Speed USB"

I'm guessing the sentence simply means that the rate increases with multiplexed block transfers. If the transfer rate 
is 30MBytes/s I should be able to write words at a transfer rate of 7500000 words per second.

> 
> > 
> > The way that transfers are done in the fevme.cxx requires iterating through 16 word arrays a number of time (3 
> > times I believe if you include the iterations taking place in v792_EventRead()). Does that not pose a 
> > significant deadtime concern? 
> > 
> 
> Hmm... I am not sure what fevme you refer to. I guess I can find version of fevme.cxx where data is read at
> maximum VME speed if you want it.

This is the VME C++ frontend example in the directory /midas/examples/Triumf/c++/

If you can find a faster version of this code I would definitely like to check it out!

> 
> K.O.


Thanks again.

Isaac

> This is very hard to do using the mfe.c frontend. (the main reason I wrote the TMFE C++ frontend class).

Actually that's not true. Just look at 

midas/examples/mtfe/mtfe.c

this is an example for a frontend with equipment with the EQ_USER flag, which allows you easily to run a separate 
thread (or more) for event collection and processing. Of course all old-fashioned C style (code is from 2007) but it 
works.

Stefan

> > This is very hard to do using the mfe.c frontend. (the main reason I wrote the TMFE C++ frontend class).
> 
> Actually that's not true. Just look at 
> 
> midas/examples/mtfe/mtfe.c
> 
> this is an example for a frontend with equipment with the EQ_USER flag, which allows you easily to run a separate 
> thread (or more) for event collection and processing. Of course all old-fashioned C style (code is from 2007) but it 
> works.
> 
> Stefan

Thank you sir I'll give it a look.

Cheers

Isaac

We kind of agreed to rewrite the slow control system in C++. Each device will have its own driver derived from a common base class implementing the general communication. The reason we need a "system" and not only a "hand-written" driver is because we want:

- glue many device drivers together for a single equipment
- have a dedicated readout thread for every device, in order not to block other devices
- have a common error reporting scheme working with several threads
- being able to disable/enable individual devices without changing the history system each time
- having a common naming scheme for all devices (like "enforce" /Equipment/<name>/Settings/Names xxx) which is needed by the history system
- ...

Will see when we have time for that.

Stefan

Hi all,

I'm currently trying to see if I can speed up polling in a frontend I'm testing. 
Currently it seems like I can't get 'lam's to happen faster than 120 times/second. 
There must be a way to make this faster. From what I understand, changing the poll 
time (500ms by default) won't affect the frequency of polling just the 'lam' 
period.

Any suggestions?

Thanks for your help!

Isaac

Hi,

What is the actual readout time, event size?
Do you have multiple equipment and of what type if any?

PAA

> 
> I'm currently trying to see if I can speed up polling in a frontend I'm testing. 
> Currently it seems like I can't get 'lam's to happen faster than 120 times/second. 
> There must be a way to make this faster. From what I understand, changing the poll 
> time (500ms by default) won't affect the frequency of polling just the 'lam' 
> period.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 

You could switch from the traditional midas mfe.c frontend to the C++ TMFE frontend,
where all this "lam" and "poll" business is removed.

At the moment, there are two example programs using the C++ TMFE frontend,
single threaded (progs/fetest_tmfe.cxx) and multithreaed (progs/fetest_tmfe_thread.cxx).

K.O.

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm currently trying to see if I can speed up polling in a frontend I'm testing. 
> Currently it seems like I can't get 'lam's to happen faster than 120 times/second. 
> There must be a way to make this faster. From what I understand, changing the poll 
> time (500ms by default) won't affect the frequency of polling just the 'lam' 
> period.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> Isaac

Hi,

How many equipment do you have and of what type?
What is the measured readout time of your equipment?

As you mentioned the polling time define the maximum time you spend in the in polling call before checking other equipment and system activities. But as soon as you get a LAM during the polling loop, the event is readout. The readout time of this equipment is obviously to be considered as well.

In case you have multiple equipment, the readout time of the other equipment is to be taken in account as you wont return to your polling prior the completion of them.

Something must be wrong on your side. If you take the example frontend under

midas/examples/experiment/frontend.cxx

and let it run to produce dummy events, you get about 90 Hz. This is because we have a

  ss_sleep(10);

in the read_trigger_event() routine to throttle things down. If you remove that sleep, 
you get an event rate of about 500'000 Hz. So the framework is really quick.

Probably your routine which looks for a 'lam' takes really long and should be fixed.

Stefan

> Something must be wrong on your side. If you take the example frontend under
> 
> midas/examples/experiment/frontend.cxx
> 
> and let it run to produce dummy events, you get about 90 Hz. This is because we have a
> 
>   ss_sleep(10);
> 
> in the read_trigger_event() routine to throttle things down. If you remove that sleep, 
> you get an event rate of about 500'000 Hz. So the framework is really quick.
> 
> Probably your routine which looks for a 'lam' takes really long and should be fixed.
> 
> Stefan

Sorry if I am going off-topic but, because the ss_sleep function was mentioned here, I 
would like to take the chance and report an issue that I am having.

In all my slow control frontends, the CPU usage for each frontend is close to 100%. This 
means that each frontend is monopolizing a single core. When I did some profiling, I 
noticed that 99% of the time is spent inside the ss_sleep function. Now, I would expect 
that the ss_sleep function should not require any CPU usage at all or very little.

So my two questions are:
Is this a bug or a feature?
Would you able to check/reproduce this behavior or do you need additional info from my 
side?

> Something must be wrong on your side. If you take the example frontend under
> 
> midas/examples/experiment/frontend.cxx
> 
> and let it run to produce dummy events, you get about 90 Hz. This is because we have a
> 
>   ss_sleep(10);
> 
> in the read_trigger_event() routine to throttle things down. If you remove that sleep, 
> you get an event rate of about 500'000 Hz. So the framework is really quick.
> 
> Probably your routine which looks for a 'lam' takes really long and should be fixed.
> 
> Stefan

Hi Stefan,

I should mention that I was using midas/examples/Triumf/c++/fevme.cxx. I was trying to see 
the max speed so I had the 'lam' always = 1 with nothing else to add overhead in the 
poll_event(). I was getting <200 Hz. I am assuming that this is a bug. There is no 
ss_sleep() in that function.

Thanks for your quick response!

Isaac

> > 
> > I'm currently trying to see if I can speed up polling in a frontend I'm testing. 
> > Currently it seems like I can't get 'lam's to happen faster than 120 times/second. 
> > There must be a way to make this faster. From what I understand, changing the poll 
> > time (500ms by default) won't affect the frequency of polling just the 'lam' 
> > period.
> > 
> > Any suggestions?
> > 
> 
> You could switch from the traditional midas mfe.c frontend to the C++ TMFE frontend,
> where all this "lam" and "poll" business is removed.
> 
> At the moment, there are two example programs using the C++ TMFE frontend,
> single threaded (progs/fetest_tmfe.cxx) and multithreaed (progs/fetest_tmfe_thread.cxx).
> 
> K.O.

Ok. I did not know that there was a C++ OOD frontend example in MIDAS. I'll take a look at 
it. Is there any documentation on it works?

Thanks for the support!

Isaac

> I should mention that I was using midas/examples/Triumf/c++/fevme.cxx

this is correct, the fevme frontend is written to do 100% CPU-busy polling.

there is several reasons for this:
- on our VME processors, we have 2 core CPUs, 1st core can poll the VME bus, 2nd core can run 
mfe.c and the ethernet transmitter.
- interrupts are expensive to use (in latency and in cpu use) because kernel handler has to call 
use handler, return back etc
- sub-millisecond sleep used to be expensive and unreliable (on 1-2GHz "core 1" and "core 2" 
CPUs running SL6 and SL7 era linux). As I understand, current linux and current 3+GHz CPUs can 
do reliable microsecond sleep.

K.O.

Hi all,

I am encountering a Javascript error (TypeError: client.error is undefined) when 
I transition between run states. Does anybody have an idea of what my problem 
might be? I have pasted an example of what MIDAS logs during such sequences.

Thanks for all the help!

Isaac


09:24:08.611 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,INFO] Executing script 
"~/ANIS_20210106/scripts/start_daq.sh" from ODB "/Script/Start DAQ"

09:24:13.833 2021/02/10 [Logger,LOG] Program Logger on host localhost started

09:24:28.598 2021/02/10 [fevme,LOG] Program fevme on host localhost started

09:24:33.951 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,INFO] Run #234 started

09:26:30.970 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:4260:cm_transition_call,ERROR] 
Client "Logger" transition 2 aborted while waiting for client "fevme": 
"/Runinfo/Transition in progress" was cleared

09:26:31.015 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:5120:cm_transition,ERROR] 
transition STOP aborted: "/Runinfo/Transition in progress" was cleared

09:27:27.270 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] 
[system.cxx:4937:ss_recv_net_command,ERROR] timeout receiving network command 
header

09:27:27.270 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:12262:rpc_client_call,ERROR] 
call to "fevme" on "localhost" RPC "rc_transition": timeout waiting for reply

> I am encountering a Javascript error (TypeError: client.error is undefined) when 
> I transition between run states. Does anybody have an idea of what my problem 
> might be? I have pasted an example of what MIDAS logs during such sequences.


Not enough information. Can you do this:

a) for the javascript error, if you get it every time, open the javascript debugger 
and capture the stack trace? or at least the file name, function name and line number 
where the javascript exception is thrown?

b) for the run start failure, start the run from odbedit "start now -v" or from 
"mtransition -v -d 1 START" (or "stop" as the case may be). capture the output, email 
to me directly or put in this elog here.

K.O.


> 
> Thanks for all the help!
> 
> Isaac
> 
> 
> 09:24:08.611 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,INFO] Executing script 
> "~/ANIS_20210106/scripts/start_daq.sh" from ODB "/Script/Start DAQ"
> 
> 09:24:13.833 2021/02/10 [Logger,LOG] Program Logger on host localhost started
> 
> 09:24:28.598 2021/02/10 [fevme,LOG] Program fevme on host localhost started
> 
> 09:24:33.951 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,INFO] Run #234 started
> 
> 09:26:30.970 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:4260:cm_transition_call,ERROR] 
> Client "Logger" transition 2 aborted while waiting for client "fevme": 
> "/Runinfo/Transition in progress" was cleared
> 
> 09:26:31.015 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:5120:cm_transition,ERROR] 
> transition STOP aborted: "/Runinfo/Transition in progress" was cleared
> 
> 09:27:27.270 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] 
> [system.cxx:4937:ss_recv_net_command,ERROR] timeout receiving network command 
> header
> 
> 09:27:27.270 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:12262:rpc_client_call,ERROR] 
> call to "fevme" on "localhost" RPC "rc_transition": timeout waiting for reply

> > I am encountering a Javascript error (TypeError: client.error is undefined) when 
> > I transition between run states. Does anybody have an idea of what my problem 
> > might be? I have pasted an example of what MIDAS logs during such sequences.
> 
> 
> Not enough information. Can you do this:
> 
> a) for the javascript error, if you get it every time, open the javascript debugger 
> and capture the stack trace? or at least the file name, function name and line number 
> where the javascript exception is thrown?

I've attached a screenshot of the call stack showing the file names and line numbers.

> b) for the run start failure, start the run from odbedit "start now -v" or from 
> "mtransition -v -d 1 START" (or "stop" as the case may be). capture the output, email 
> to me directly or put in this elog here.

I have also attached a screen capture of the output.

Thanks for your help as always.

Isaac

> K.O.
> 
> 
> > 
> > Thanks for all the help!
> > 
> > Isaac
> > 
> > 
> > 09:24:08.611 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,INFO] Executing script 
> > "~/ANIS_20210106/scripts/start_daq.sh" from ODB "/Script/Start DAQ"
> > 
> > 09:24:13.833 2021/02/10 [Logger,LOG] Program Logger on host localhost started
> > 
> > 09:24:28.598 2021/02/10 [fevme,LOG] Program fevme on host localhost started
> > 
> > 09:24:33.951 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,INFO] Run #234 started
> > 
> > 09:26:30.970 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:4260:cm_transition_call,ERROR] 
> > Client "Logger" transition 2 aborted while waiting for client "fevme": 
> > "/Runinfo/Transition in progress" was cleared
> > 
> > 09:26:31.015 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:5120:cm_transition,ERROR] 
> > transition STOP aborted: "/Runinfo/Transition in progress" was cleared
> > 
> > 09:27:27.270 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] 
> > [system.cxx:4937:ss_recv_net_command,ERROR] timeout receiving network command 
> > header
> > 
> > 09:27:27.270 2021/02/10 [mhttpd,ERROR] [midas.cxx:12262:rpc_client_call,ERROR] 
> > call to "fevme" on "localhost" RPC "rc_transition": timeout waiting for reply

Hello,

I see this mhttpd error starting MSL-script: 
Uncaught (in promise) ReferenceError: m is not defined
at mhttpd_message (VM2848 mhttpd.js:2304)
at VM2848 mhttpd.js:2122

As I can see it does not affect work of MSL script but shows ReferenceError in 
Midas sequencer (see picture).

Could please point me how to fix this error?

Thanks.
Ruslan

Am I right in thinking that the TMFE HandlePoll function is calle once per 
PollMidas()? And what is the difference to HandleRead()?

> Am I right in thinking that the TMFE HandlePoll function is calle once per 
> PollMidas()? And what is the difference to HandleRead()?

Actually, polled equipment is not implemented yet in TMFE, as you noted, the 
internal scheduler needs to be reworked.

Anyhow, I think with modern c++ and with threads, both "periodic" and "polled" 
equipments are not strictly necessary.

Periodic equipment is effectively this:

in a thread:
while (1) {
do stuff, read data, send events
sleep
}

Polled equipment is effectively this:

in a thread:
while (1) {
if (poll()) { read data, send events }
else { sleep for a little bit }
}

Example of such code is the "bulk" equipment in progs/fetest.cxx.

But to implement the same in a single threaded environment (eliminates
problems with data locking, race conditions, etc) and to provide additional
structure to the user code, the plan is to implement polled equipment in TMFE
frontends. (periodic equipment is already implemented).

K.O.