> time to choose the next c++!

Ununtu-24.04, MIDAS builds with -std=c++23 without errors or any additional warnings. (but does it work? "make 
test" is ok).

K.O.

As part of discussions with Stefan during the MIDAS workshop,
an update to supported versions of c++ on different platforms.

- el6/SL6 is gone, gcc 4.4.7, no c++11
- el7/CentOS-7 is out the door, gcc 4.8.5, full c++11, no c++14, no c++17
- el8 was a still born child of RedHat
- el9  - gcc 11.5 with 12, 13, and 14 available, incomplete c++26, c++23, experimental c++20, default c++17
- el10 - gcc 14.2, incomplete c++26, c++23, experimental c++20, default c++17

- U-18 - gcc  7.5, experimental, incomplete c++17
- U-20 - gcc  9.4 default, 10.5 available, experimental, incomplete c++17
- U-22 - gcc 11.4 default, 12.3 available, default c++17
- U-24 - gcc 13.3 default, 14.2 available, default c++17

- D-11 - gcc 10.2, experimental c++17
- D-12 - gcc 12.2, default c++17

- MacOS 15.2 - llvm/clang 16, default c++17
- MacOS 15.7 - llvm/clang 17, default c++17

Taken from C++ level support:

GCC C++ support: https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html
LLVM clang c++ support: https://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html
GLIBC c++ support: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html

This suggests that c++17 is available on all current platforms.

K.O.

P.S. ROOT moved to C++17 as of release 6.30 on November 6, 2023.

Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17. There is 
many new features and we want to start using some of them.

Per my previous message https://daq00.triumf.ca/elog-midas/Midas/3084,
c++17 is available on current MacOS, U-22 and newer, el9 and newer, D-12 and newer.

(ROOT moved to C++17 as of release 6.30 on November 6, 2023)

As I reported earlier, MIDAS already builds with c++23 on U-24, and this move does not require any 
actual code changes other than a bump of c++ version in CMakeLists.txt and Makefile.

Please let us know if this change will cause problems or if you think that we should move to an older 
c++ (c++14) or newer c++ (c++20 or c++23 or c++26).

If we do not hear anything, we will implement this change in about 2-3 weeks.

K.O.

perhaps c++20? - std::format is an immediately useful feature. --regards, Pasha

> Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17. There is 
> many new features and we want to start using some of them.
> 
> Per my previous message https://daq00.triumf.ca/elog-midas/Midas/3084,
> c++17 is available on current MacOS, U-22 and newer, el9 and newer, D-12 and newer.
> 
> (ROOT moved to C++17 as of release 6.30 on November 6, 2023)
> 
> As I reported earlier, MIDAS already builds with c++23 on U-24, and this move does not require any 
> actual code changes other than a bump of c++ version in CMakeLists.txt and Makefile.
> 
> Please let us know if this change will cause problems or if you think that we should move to an older 
> c++ (c++14) or newer c++ (c++20 or c++23 or c++26).
> 
> If we do not hear anything, we will implement this change in about 2-3 weeks.
> 
> K.O.

> perhaps c++20? - std::format is an immediately useful feature. --regards, Pasha

confirmed. std::format is an improvement over K&R C printf().

but seems unavailable on U-20 and older, requires --std=c++20 on U-24 and MacOS.

but also available as a standalone library: https://github.com/fmtlib/fmt

myself, I use printf() and msprintf(), I think std::format is in the "too little, too late to save C++" 
department.

K.O.

> > perhaps c++20? - std::format is an immediately useful feature. --regards, Pasha
> 
> confirmed. std::format is an improvement over K&R C printf().
> 
> but seems unavailable on U-20 and older, requires --std=c++20 on U-24 and MacOS.

agreed! - availability is significantly more important. -- regards, Pasha

> Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17.

There were no objections to this move.

There was one suggestion to use std::format available in c++20 (MIDAS has very similar msprintf()).

We shall move forward with this change.

K.O.

> > Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17.
> We shall move forward with this change.

It is done. Last c++11 MIDAS is midas-2025-11-a (plus the db_delete_key merge).

I notice the cmake does not actually pass "-std=c++17" to the c++ compiler, and on U-20, it is likely 
the default c++14 is used. cmake always does the wrong thing and this will need to be fixed later.

K.O.

> I notice the cmake does not actually pass "-std=c++17" to the c++ compiler, and on U-20, it is likely 
> the default c++14 is used. cmake always does the wrong thing and this will need to be fixed later.

Does adding

set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD 17)
set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD_REQUIRED ON)

Get it to do the right thing?

Cheers,

Nick..

> > > Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17.
> > We shall move forward with this change.
> 
> It is done. Last c++11 MIDAS is midas-2025-11-a (plus the db_delete_key merge).
> 
> I notice the cmake does not actually pass "-std=c++17" to the c++ compiler, and on U-20, it is likely 
> the default c++14 is used. cmake always does the wrong thing and this will need to be fixed later.
> 
> K.O.

We should either use 

set(CMAKE_CSS_STANDARD 17)

or

target_compile_features(<target> PUBLIC cxx_std_17)

but not mix both. We have already the second one for the midas library, like 

target_compile_features(objlib PUBLIC cxx_std_17)

which correctly causes a

c++ -std=gnu++17 ...

(at leas in my case).

If the compiler flag is missing for a target, we should add the target_compile_feature above for that target.

Stefan

> 
> > I notice the cmake does not actually pass "-std=c++17" to the c++ compiler, and on U-20, it is likely 
> > the default c++14 is used. cmake always does the wrong thing and this will need to be fixed later.
> 
> set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD 17)
> set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD_REQUIRED ON)
>

We used to have this, it is not there now.

> 
> Get it to do the right thing?
> 

Unlikely, as Stefan reported, asking for C++17 yields -std=gnu++17 which is close enough, but not the same 
thing.

For now, it does not matter, U-22 and U-24 are c++17 by default, if somebody accidentally commits c++20 
code, builds will fail and somebody will catch it and complain, plus the weekly bitbucket build will bomb-
out.

On U-20, default is c++14 and builds will start bombing out as soon as we commit some c++17 code.

el7 builds have not worked for some time now (a bizarre mysterious error)

el8, el9, el10 likely same situation as Ubuntu.

macos, not sure.

K.O.

> target_compile_features(<target> PUBLIC cxx_std_17)
> which correctly causes a
> c++ -std=gnu++17 ...

I think this is set in a couple of places, yet I do not see any -std=xxx flag passed to the compiler.

(and I am not keen on spending a full day fighting cmake)

(btw, -std=c++17 and -std=gnu++17 are not the same thing, I am not sure how well GNU extensions are supported on 
macos)

K.O.

I switched from 

  target_compile_features(<target> PUBLIC css_std_17)

to

  set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD 17)
  set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD_REQUIRED ON)
  set(CMAKE_CXX_EXTENSIONS OFF)   # optional: disables GNU extensions

Which is now global in the CMakeLists.txt, so we only have to deal with one location if we want to change it. It also turns off the g++ options. On my
Mac I get now a clean

  -std=c++17

Please everybody test on your side. Change is committed.

Stefan

> 
>   set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD 17)
>   set(CMAKE_CXX_STANDARD_REQUIRED ON)
>   set(CMAKE_CXX_EXTENSIONS OFF)   # optional: disables GNU extensions
> 

Looks like it works, I see -std=c++17 everywhere. Added same to manalyzer and mscb (mscb was still c++11).

Build on U-20 works (g++ accepts -std=c++17), build on CentOS-7 bombs, cmake 3.17.5 does not know CXX17.

K.O.

Hi, Stefan & co - now that midas is c++11 and c++11 comes with a threads library, should we 
switch midas to use the c++11 threads instead of pthreads? (Of course on Linux c++11 
threads are a layer on top of pthreads, the best I know).

This should remove the dependency on pthreads.h and use a more native implementation of 
threads on MacOS and Windows. (again, the best I can tell).

Of course this depends on c++11 threads having all the functions we need. Specifically, "lock 
with timeout" is useful to deal with "gah! everything stopped! what do I do!", a problem 
bedeviling midas in the early days (and still happens today!). Current midas kills everything 
after 5 minutes of deadlock - then the user knows how to restart everything and the developer 
has core dumps to look at. (to see which program/thread holds the lock and would not give it 
up).

Any thoughts on this?

K.O.

I'm thinking of this already since some time, and it was part of my motivation switching to C++11.
I was delighted to see that what we do in system.c (encapsulate system functions such as threads
and shared memory) is now done natively in C++11, and it's done by experts and not amateurs like us.

I see that with std::timed_mutex and try_lock_for we have the desired timeout function. Pity that
C++11 does not contain inter-process communication like semaphores, so there we still have to use
our old functions. 

But for threads switching to std::thread, I'm all in.

Stefan

> Hi, Stefan & co - now that midas is c++11 and c++11 comes with a threads library, should we 
> switch midas to use the c++11 threads instead of pthreads? (Of course on Linux c++11 
> threads are a layer on top of pthreads, the best I know).
> 
> This should remove the dependency on pthreads.h and use a more native implementation of 
> threads on MacOS and Windows. (again, the best I can tell).
> 
> Of course this depends on c++11 threads having all the functions we need. Specifically, "lock 
> with timeout" is useful to deal with "gah! everything stopped! what do I do!", a problem 
> bedeviling midas in the early days (and still happens today!). Current midas kills everything 
> after 5 minutes of deadlock - then the user knows how to restart everything and the developer 
> has core dumps to look at. (to see which program/thread holds the lock and would not give it 
> up).
> 
> Any thoughts on this?
> 
> K.O.

> Hi, Stefan & co - now that midas is c++11 and c++11 comes with a threads library, should we 
> switch midas to use the c++11 threads instead of pthreads? (Of course on Linux c++11 
> threads are a layer on top of pthreads, the best I know).
> 
> This should remove the dependency on pthreads.h and use a more native implementation of 
> threads on MacOS and Windows. (again, the best I can tell).
> 
> Of course this depends on c++11 threads having all the functions we need. Specifically, "lock 
> with timeout" is useful to deal with "gah! everything stopped! what do I do!", a problem 
> bedeviling midas in the early days (and still happens today!). Current midas kills everything 
> after 5 minutes of deadlock - then the user knows how to restart everything and the developer 
> has core dumps to look at. (to see which program/thread holds the lock and would not give it 
> up).
> 
> Any thoughts on this?
> 
> K.O.

Hi, I just wanted to say that I have seen this post and maybe that is the solution to the pthreads compiler problem in OS 10.15, but 
of course I am a total amateur in here. Thanks for thinking about this and I will wait and hold to see what gets decided. Thanks

Berta  

 Hi,
I was trying to update the checkout of Midas, but it looks like something is not
working - maybe a component of the Savannah system:
[sergio@daq-pc midas-SVN]$ svn update
svn@savannah.psi.ch's password: svn
unix dgram connect: Connection refused at /bin/cvssh.pl line 32
no connection to syslog available at /bin/cvssh.pl line 32
svn: Connection closed unexpectedly

my .svn/entries says (amongst the rest)
 url="svn+ssh://svn@savannah.psi.ch/afs/psi.ch/project/meg/svn/midas/trunk"
and yes, it used to work well... 

Cheers,
  Sergio

>  Hi,
> I was trying to update the checkout of Midas, but it looks like something is not
> working - maybe a component of the Savannah system:
> [sergio@daq-pc midas-SVN]$ svn update
> svn@savannah.psi.ch's password: svn
> unix dgram connect: Connection refused at /bin/cvssh.pl line 32
> no connection to syslog available at /bin/cvssh.pl line 32
> svn: Connection closed unexpectedly
> 
> my .svn/entries says (amongst the rest)
>  url="svn+ssh://svn@savannah.psi.ch/afs/psi.ch/project/meg/svn/midas/trunk"
> and yes, it used to work well... 
> 
> Cheers,
>   Sergio

I just tried now and it seemed to work fine. Do you still have the problem?

- Stefan

> I just tried now and it seemed to work fine. Do you still have the problem?
> 
> - Stefan

 The problem was still there this morning, shortly after seeing your mail, but seems
to be fixed now.
 BTW, which is the best way to submit patches ? I have a version of khyt1331 for Linux
kernel 2.6 (we are running Scientific Linux 4.1), and a few smaller things, mostly in
the examples. 

 Thanks, Sergio