> The current develop branch no longer compiles on macOS. I get lots of errors of the form
> /Users/me/midas/src/history_schema.cxx:740:4: error: unknown type name 'off64_t' ...

Confirmed. No idea why off64_t is missing on MacOS. I will try to fix it next week.

K.O.

> I will work today on the odbxx API to make sure there are no memory leaks when you switch form one file to another. I talked to KO so he agreed that yo then commit your proposed change of manalyzer 

That, and add a "clear()" method that resets odbxx state to "empty". I will call odbxx.clear() everywhere where I call "delete fOdb;" (TARunInfo::dtor and other places).

K.O.

> > ....Before commit of this patch, can you confirm the RunInfo destructor
> > deletes this ODB stuff from odbxx? manalyzer takes object life times very seriously.
> 
> The call stores the ODB string in static members of the midas::odb class. So these will have a lifetime of the process or until they're replaced by another 
> call. When a midas::odb is instantiated it reads from these static members and then that data has the lifetime of that instance.

this is the behavious we need to modify.

> > Of course with this patch extending manalyzer to process two or more runs at the same time becomes impossible.
> Yes, I hadn't realised that was an option.

It is an option I would like to keep open. Not too many use cases, but imagine a "split brain" experiment
that has two MIDAS instances record data into two separate midas files. (if LIGO were to use MIDAS,
consider LIGO Hanford and LIGO Livingston).

Assuming data in these two data sets have common precision timestamps,
our task is to assemble data from two input files into single physics events. The analyzer will need
to read two input files, each file with it's run number, it's own ODB dump, etc, process the midas
events (unpack, calibrate, filter, etc), look at the timestamps, assemble the data into physics events.

This trivially generalizes into reading 2, 3, or more input files.

> For that to work I guess the aforementioned static members could be made thread local storage, and 
> processing of each run kept to a specific thread. Although I could imagine user code making assumptions and breaking, like storing a midas::odb as a 
> class member or something.

manalyzer is already multithreaded, if you will need to keep track of which thread should see which odbxx global object,
seems like abuse of the thread-local storage idea and intent.

> Note that I missed doing the same for the end of run event, which should probably also be added.

Ideally, the memory sanitizer will flag this for us, complain about anything that odbxx.clear() failes to free.

K.O.

As part of discussions with Stefan during the MIDAS workshop,
an update to supported versions of c++ on different platforms.

- el6/SL6 is gone, gcc 4.4.7, no c++11
- el7/CentOS-7 is out the door, gcc 4.8.5, full c++11, no c++14, no c++17
- el8 was a still born child of RedHat
- el9  - gcc 11.5 with 12, 13, and 14 available, incomplete c++26, c++23, experimental c++20, default c++17
- el10 - gcc 14.2, incomplete c++26, c++23, experimental c++20, default c++17

- U-18 - gcc  7.5, experimental, incomplete c++17
- U-20 - gcc  9.4 default, 10.5 available, experimental, incomplete c++17
- U-22 - gcc 11.4 default, 12.3 available, default c++17
- U-24 - gcc 13.3 default, 14.2 available, default c++17

- D-11 - gcc 10.2, experimental c++17
- D-12 - gcc 12.2, default c++17

- MacOS 15.2 - llvm/clang 16, default c++17
- MacOS 15.7 - llvm/clang 17, default c++17

Taken from C++ level support:

GCC C++ support: https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html
LLVM clang c++ support: https://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html
GLIBC c++ support: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html

This suggests that c++17 is available on all current platforms.

K.O.

P.S. ROOT moved to C++17 as of release 6.30 on November 6, 2023.

Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17. There is 
many new features and we want to start using some of them.

Per my previous message https://daq00.triumf.ca/elog-midas/Midas/3084,
c++17 is available on current MacOS, U-22 and newer, el9 and newer, D-12 and newer.

(ROOT moved to C++17 as of release 6.30 on November 6, 2023)

As I reported earlier, MIDAS already builds with c++23 on U-24, and this move does not require any 
actual code changes other than a bump of c++ version in CMakeLists.txt and Makefile.

Please let us know if this change will cause problems or if you think that we should move to an older 
c++ (c++14) or newer c++ (c++20 or c++23 or c++26).

If we do not hear anything, we will implement this change in about 2-3 weeks.

K.O.

Historically, building MIDAS with ROOT caused us many problems - build failures because of c++ version 
mismatch, CFLAGS mismatch; run-time failures because of ROOT library mismatches; etc, etc.

Following discussions at the MIDAS Workshop, we think we should finally bite the bullet and remove ROOT 
support from MIDAS:

- remove support for writing data in ROOT TTree format in mlogger (rmlogger)
- remove support for ROOT in mana.c based analyzer (which itself we propose to remove)
- remove ROOT helper functions in rmidas.h
- remove ROOT support in cmake
- remove rmlogger and rmana

This change will not affect the rootana and manalyzer packages, they will continue to be built with 
ROOT support if ROOT is available.

Right now, we cannot remember any experiment that uses the ROOT TTree output function in mlogger. 

If you use this feature, we very much would like to hear from you. Please contact Stefan or myself or 
reply to this message.

As replacement for rmlogger, we could implement identical or similar functionality using an manalyzer-
based custom logger, but we need at least one user who can test it for us and confirm that it works 
correctly.

K.O.

Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop and the proposed removal of support for ROOT, the very obsolete mana.c 
analyzer framework has reached the end of the line.

Right now we cannot remember any experiment that uses a mana.c based analyzer. Most experiments use analyzers based 
on the rootana package (developed for ALPHA-1 at CERN) and on the manalyzer package (developed for ALPHA-2 and ALPHA-
g at CERN, with multithreading support contributed by Joseph McKenna).

If you know of any experiment that uses a mana.c based analyzer, please let us know. We can help with building it 
using an outside-of-midas local copy of mana.c or help with migration to a newer framework (or migration to a 
framework-free standalone analyzer).

If we do not hear from anybody, we will remove mana.c (and rmana) at the same time as we remove ROOT support from 
mlogger (rmlogger).

K.O.

> Hi, at the LEM Experiment at PSI, we still use mana.c and would like to keep it until end of 2026, where we will enter a long shutdown.

Excellent, good to hear from you! Once we remove ROOT support rmana.o will be gone, only mana.o (no ROOT) will remain. Will this break your builds?

One solution could be to copy mana.c from MIDAS into your source tree and compile/link it from there (not from MIDAS).

Perhaps the way to proceed is create a test branch with ROOT and mana.c removed, you can try it,
report success/fail and we go from there.

We should schedule this work for when both of us have a block of free time to work on it.

K.O.

To record discussion with Stefan regarding 64-bit time_t

To remember:

signed   32-bit time_t will overflow in 2038 (soon enough)
unsigned 32-bit time_t will overflow in 2106 ("not my problem")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/64bit-time

64-bit Linux uses 64-bit time_t since as far back as el6.

MIDAS uses unsigned 32-bit (DWORD) time-in-seconds in many places (ODB, event 
headers, event buffers, etc)

MIDAS also uses unsigned 32-bit (DWORD) time-in-milliseconds in many places.

All time arithmetic is done using unsigned 32-bit math, these time calculations
are good until year 2106, at which time they will wrap around
(but still work correctly).

So we do not need to do anything, but...

To reduce confusion between the different time types, we will probably
introduce a 32-bit-time-in-seconds data type (i.e. time32_t alias for uint32_t),
and a 32-bit-time-in-milliseconds data type (i.e. millitime32_t alias for 
uint32_t). Also rename ss_time() to ss_time32() and ss_millitime() to 
ss_millitime32().

This should help avoiding accidental mixing of MIDAS 32-bit time, system 64-bit 
time and MIDAS 32-bit-time-in-milliseconds.

(confusion between time-in-seconds and time-in-milliseconds happened several 
times in MIDAS code).

There will be additional discussion and announcements if we go ahead with these 
changes.

K.O.

To record discussion with Stefan about long history variable names.

We have several requests to remove the 32-byte limit on history variable names.

Presently, history variable names are formed from two 32-byte strings: history event name and 
history tag name:

* history event name is usually same as the equipment name (also a 32-byte string)
* history tag name is composed from /eq/xxx/variables/yyy name (also a 32-byte string) or from 
names in /eq/xxx/variables/names and "names zzz", which can have arbitrary length (and tag name 
would have to be truncated).

This worked well for "per-equipment" history, history events corresponded to equipment/variables 
and all data from equipment/variables were written together in one go. (this very inefficient if 
values of only one variable is updated).

Then at some point we implemented "per-variable" history:

* history event name is a equipment name (32-byte string) plus /eq/xxx/variables/vvv variable name 
(also 32-byte string). (obviously truncation is quite possible)
* history tag name is unchanged (also can be truncated)

With "per-variable" history, history events correspond to individual variables (ODB entries) in 
/eq/xxx/variables. If value of one variable is updated, only that variable is written to ODB. This 
is much more efficient. (If variable is an array, the whole array is written, is variable is a 
subdirectory, the whole subdirectory is written).

We considered even finer granularity, writing to history file only the one value that changed, but 
decided against slicing the data too fine. (for arrays, MIDAS frontends usually update all values 
of an array, as in "array of 10 temperatures" or "array of 4000 high voltages").

Many years later, we have the SQL history and the FILE history which do not have the 32-byte limit 
on history event names and history tag names (no limit in the MIDAS C++ code. MySQL and PgSQL have 
limits on table name and column name lengths, 64 bytes and 31 bytes respectively, best I can 
tell).

But the API still uses the MIDAS "struct TAG" with the 32-byte tag name length limit.

It is pretty easy to change the API to use a new "struct TAG_CXX" with std::string unlimited-
length tag names, but the old MIDAS history will be unable to deal with long names. Hence
the discussion about removing the old MIDAS history and keeping only the FILE and SQL history 
(plus the mhdump and mh2sql tools to convert old history files to the new formats).

(some code in mhttpd may need to be corrected for long history names. javascript code should be 
okey, history plot code may need adjustment to display pathologically long names. use small font, 
truncate, etc).

K.O.

> perhaps c++20? - std::format is an immediately useful feature. --regards, Pasha

confirmed. std::format is an improvement over K&R C printf().

but seems unavailable on U-20 and older, requires --std=c++20 on U-24 and MacOS.

but also available as a standalone library: https://github.com/fmtlib/fmt

myself, I use printf() and msprintf(), I think std::format is in the "too little, too late to save C++" 
department.

K.O.

> > ...I talked to KO so he agreed that yo then commit your proposed change of manalyzer 
> Merged and pushed.

negative. as I already 

midas web pages that use overlays (dlgPanel, etc) are currently broken - if 
overlay does not fit in the visible window, it's bottom is truncated and control 
buttons like "create" and "cancel" are not visible, not clickable, page does not 
work.

when these pages were originally written, I am pretty sure these overlays were 
scrollable and this problem did not exist. I think that was broken recently, 
maybe withint the last year or so.

specific examples:

a) odb editor:

- open odb editor,
- click on "create odb link"
- click on "link target ...", a dialog overlay opens with a list of odb keys in 
the current directory
- select a directory with a large number of entries (i.e. "/Programs")
- alternatively, make browser window smaller
- observe the "ok" and "cancel" buttons are not visible, cannot be clicked
- definitely, there used be a scroll bar and one could scroll down to see these 
buttons.

b) history planel editor:

- open history plot,
- click on "configure this plot" icon,
- history editor opens,
- click "add active variables"
- select active event that has many variables
- observe that the list is cut off at the bottom, the very last variables are 
not visible
- alternatively, make the browser window smaller

I wrote this page and at the time this problem did not exist, there was a scroll 
bar and one could scroll up and down the list even if there were really many 
variables there.

Maybe this breakage is not from us, I see similar problems on other sites, so 
maybe browser behaviour changed recentlyshly.

I think Stefan write the dlgPanel code originally? I am not very familiar with 
it and I do not know if anybody changed it recently?

K.O.

> Following discussions at the MIDAS workshop, we propose to move MIDAS from c++11 to c++17.

There were no objections to this move.

There was one suggestion to use std::format available in c++20 (MIDAS has very similar msprintf()).

We shall move forward with this change.

K.O.

> we should finally bite the bullet and remove ROOT support from MIDAS ...

there were no objections to removing ROOT support from mlogger.

there was a request to keep rmana.

We shall move forward with this:
- remove all the HAVE_ROOT code from mlogger.cxx
- for now, keep HAVE_ROOT in CMakefile (HAVE_ROOT was removed from Makefile a long time ago)
- for now, keep rmana
- look into moving rmana to a separate package or a separate subdirectory and keep maximum compatibility 
with existing make files.

K.O.

> Historically, building MIDAS with ROOT caused us many problems - build failures because of c++ version 
> mismatch, CFLAGS mismatch; run-time failures because of ROOT library mismatches; etc, etc.
> 
> Following discussions at the MIDAS Workshop, we think we should finally bite the bullet and remove ROOT 
> support from MIDAS:
> 
> - remove support for writing data in ROOT TTree format in mlogger (rmlogger)
> - remove support for ROOT in mana.c based analyzer (which itself we propose to remove)
> - remove ROOT helper functions in rmidas.h
> - remove ROOT support in cmake
> - remove rmlogger and rmana
> 
> This change will not affect the rootana and manalyzer packages, they will continue to be built with 
> ROOT support if ROOT is available.
> 
> Right now, we cannot remember any experiment that uses the ROOT TTree output function in mlogger. 
> 
> If you use this feature, we very much would like to hear from you. Please contact Stefan or myself or 
> reply to this message.
> 
> As replacement for rmlogger, we could implement identical or similar functionality using an manalyzer-
> based custom logger, but we need at least one user who can test it for us and confirm that it works 
> correctly.
> 
> K.O.

I added Makefile rules for running MIDAS through the clang-tidy static code 
analyzer. (rules for running cppcheck have gone missing, I hope I find them).

Reports from clang-tidy are somewhat repetitive (complain about the same class of 
non-problem problems repeatedly), but several warnings and errors identified real 
bugs.

Specifically, detection of memory leaks in error paths and detection of NULL 
pointer dereference and use of uninitialized variables is pretty solid.

Fixes for the worst problems reported by cppcheck and clang-tidy are already 
committed to midas git.

K.O.

> I would handle this actually like symbolic links are handled under linux. If you delete a symbolic link, the link gets 
> detected and NOT the file the link is pointing to.
> 
> So I conclude that the "follow links" is a misconception and should be removed.

I am finally writing test code for the ODB API, partially to discover what db_delete_key(TRUE) actually does,
because when I went ahead to remove it, I found that it's use is inconsistent. And indeed
it does strange and unexpected things, I will proceed with removing it.

K.O.

> Sorry about that. I could not figure out what was the reason for doing this. This was during the time I was working on the file_picker. I removed these lines and see no effect on the file_picker. I'll continue checking it affect anything else.

I confirm reported problem seems to be fixed in commit:
https://bitbucket.org/tmidas/midas/commits/7f2690b478d6dfb16b48fc98955093e6369b04c1

Big thanks to Stefan and Zaher for figuring it out quickly.

K.O.

> > I would handle this actually like symbolic links are handled under linux. If you delete a symbolic link, the link gets 
> > detected and NOT the file the link is pointing to.
> > 
> > So I conclude that the "follow links" is a misconception and should be removed.
> 
> I am finally writing test code for the ODB API, partially to discover what db_delete_key(TRUE) actually does,
> because when I went ahead to remove it, I found that it's use is inconsistent. And indeed
> it does strange and unexpected things, I will proceed with removing it.
> 

this is now merged into develop. there will be deprecation warnings from mvodb and from midas_c_compat, I and Ben will clean 
them up, just not today.

for more detail, see separate message.

K.O.

In the darkside vertical slice midas daq, we observed odb corruption which I 
traced to db_delete_key(). cause of corruption is not important. important is to 
have a robust odb where small corruption will stay localized and will not 
require erasing corrupt odb and reloading it from a backup file.

To help debug such corruption one can try to set ODB "/Experiment/Protect ODB" 
to "yes". This will make ODB shared memory read-only and user code scribbling 
into the wrong memory address will cause a seg fault and core dump instead of 
silent ODB corruption. This feature is not enabled by default because changing 
ODB shared memory mapping from "read-only" to "writable" (and back) is not very 
fast and it slows down MIDAS noticably.

MIDAS right before this merge was tagged "midas-2025-11-a", if you see this ODB 
update cause trouble, please report it here and revert to this tagged version.

Updates:
- harden db_delete_key() against internal corruption, if odb inconsistency is 
detected, do a clean crash instead of trying to delete stuff and corrupting odb 
to the point where it has to be erased and reloaded from a backup file.
- additional refactoring to separate read-locked and write-locked code.
- merge of missing patch to avoid odb corruption when key area becomes 100% full 
(or was it the data area? I forget now, I fixed one of them long time ago, now 
both are fixed).
- remove the "follow_links" argument from db_delete_key(), see separate 
discussion on this.
- add db_delete() to delete things by ODB path not by hkey (atomic fused 
together db_find_link() and db_delete_key()).
- fixes for incorrect use of db_find_key() and db_delete_key(), this 
unexpectedly follows symlinks and deletes the wrong ODB entry. (should have been 
db_find_link(), now replaced with atomic db_delete()).

K.O.